Talk:Timeline

Citation needed

I know the sources for some of the "citation needed". The one about Cridhe comes from the novel "The Cursed Land", the one about Almaaz recording of years comes from the novel "Song of Time", the ones about Taysir fighting Leshrac and the flooding of Fyndhorn comes form The History of the Battlemage Ravidel reposted here from the game site: https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-storyline/335890-info-the-story-of-the-battlemage-ravidel

Reversal

Sorry, my reversal was unintentional --Hunter (talk) 18:26, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

I've repaired it --Hunter (talk) 05:50, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Typo

"4013-4169

   * Rofellos fights Phyrexians in Yavimaya while Davvol overlaps it with Rath.
   * Urza meets Lyana of the Soltari.
   * Croag murders Davvol for his failures and his plans to kill Croag himself. "

What ? There's a typo out there :-/ - Groffskithur, 4 mai 2010

Article name

Currently, the article name is "Timeline". I have tried to understand reasons and possible reasons as to this move, from Timeline of Magic storylines; but, there are very few reasons for this move. On the basis of searching, no one will search for "Timeline" any more likely than they are to search for "Timeline of Magic storylines". Moreover, the title now is nondescript and imprecise. What timeline is written of in this article? It is not immediately obvious, nor is there any cogent or valid reason for this retention of the current article title, "Timeline". According, please move this article, leaving a redirect if it pleases you, to something more appropriate. --Magic Mage (talk!) 07:10, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

For the record

This article is now without a category. --Hunter61 (talk) 07:26, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Origins

What about the events in Origins and the Planeswalker's back stories? Should include Jace's time on Vyrn, no? Kudit (talk) 20:57, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes. Please go ahead --Hunter (talk) 19:08, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure _when_ that happens, just that it's sometime when Emmara Tandris was alive on Ravnica (I think that indicates it's post-mending, no?) Kudit (talk) 20:57, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

The Planes of Magic Origins article seems to indicate that Jace planeswalked to Ravnica prior to the events of the first Ravnica block (despite the fact that the Guildpact was supposed to prevent planeswalkers from visiting Ravnica), which would almost certainly place the Decamillenial at some point post-Mending. Blue mages have magic that can grant extended lifespans, but Jace is a telepath, not a time manipulator or a Simic biomancer.--124.150.83.11 19:06, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Battle For Zendikar and Shadows Over Innistrad

The events of the Battle For Zendikar and Shadows Over Innistrad blocks are not yet on here. Could someone please add them? Dracofulmen (talk) 14:25, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Date inconsistencies in the Artifacts Cycle

I have been reading through the Artifacts Cycle and am puzzled by some date references. In chapter 5 of Planeswalker, Ratepe says that Urza was born "three thousand, four hundred and thirty-seven years ago" (page 68). If Ratepe (and author Lynn Abbey) is correct, that means the primary (non-flashback) events of Planeswalker take place in 3437-3438 AR. But in chapter 9 of the following book, Time Streams, the dates given for the establishment and destruction of the Tolarian Academy are 3285 and 3307 AR, respectively (page 122), despite the fact that those events must take place after the conclusion of the events of Planeswalker. Either the authors made a mistake, or (arguably, in-universe) the teachers who taught Ratepe were incorrect. The timeline here on mtgsalvation clearly trusts the dates given in Time Streams, but it would be nice if there were some kind of comment clarifying the date that is clearly given in Planeswalker. It should probably also be noted on the Timeline page that the graphical time line presented just before chapter 1 of Planeswalker is also inconsistent in some ways with the actual events and dates recorded in Planeswalker (for example, the graphical time line says that Urza and Xantcha met in approximately 1700 AR, which is in stark contrast to what is said in chapter 5, which strongly suggests that they met in approximately 300 AR). It seems some additional notes are needed on the Timeline page to clarify some of these apparent discrepancies. If I can figure some of this out more definitively I will happily edit the page myself, but if anyone knows some of these details better than I do, I'd be grateful if they would add some further commentary. --Mtgqualitycontrol (talk) 03:38, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Post-mending dates

So according to the recent Magic story podcast, the Mending in fact happened about 60 years before Kaladesh block. I want to edit the timeline to account for this, but I'm not sure how to resolve it with the contradictory information that's already there. Any ideas how to solve this? Thank you! Sniffnoy (talk) 05:15, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw your earlier edit and was contemplating this. Thank you, by the way: I don't have the patience for podcasts myself! I don't see any references around that segment of the page, so yours definitely takes precedence over what amounts to undocumented guesswork. I think the least disruptive change is to assume the date for the Mending is correct for now (in 4505), append the most recent events under a heading for 4565, and then shift the dates for everything in between to make sense. Also, update the Tarkir time travel bit, which is known to be 1280 years before the present... I should go dig up that reference. --Corveroth (talk) 06:37, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

The Mending was in 4500. See vorthosjay.tumblr.com/post/624185473561165824/when-did-occure-the-mending-4500-4505-another#notes --86.202.234.98 22:01, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Arena edits

Are these dates given explicitly in the text? Also, did you intent to remove the existing entry placed at the year 4050? --Corveroth (talk) 23:16, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

The dates aren't given, but the time period between the events is known, starting from the ascension of Greensleeves in 4077. We know that the Time of Troubles happened eight years before, the Night of Fire twenty years before that, and that Galin was five at the time. Since the Festival in Arena is the 998th, we can find the date for the first Festival. (the 4050 date was a blunder on my part, sorry, I've corrected it). --Firebead elvenhair (talk) 11:08, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Too many of these entries don't have sourcing of any kind, and you deserve thanks for improving that. =) --Corveroth (talk) 16:31, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

The Thran timeline

Following Squirle's advice, I too think that the dates of the Thran history are too precise. I would put them all under the -5000AR, using the Thran-Phyrexian War as a fixed point, and putting the precedent events accordingly (for example, 7 times before Thran-Phyrexian War) as they are given in the Thran novel. However, before proceeding I wanted to ask if someone is against this change (obviously I'll change the other Thran pages linked to this change).--Firebead elvenhair (talk) 19:01, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

The timeline here is largely Squirle's creation in the first place. I see no problem with trying to maintain this page to parallel his work elsewhere. --Corveroth (talk) 19:23, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Agreed --Hunter (talk) 06:02, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Random Timeline Stuff

So based on some evidence I found in stories and books (rtr, kaladesh, ixalan, and aoa) I have figured out these dates. The Gatewatch is in Kaladesh in about 4564, and Jace ends up in Ixalan about 4566. Liliana was born around 4335, and Jace about 4540 (which means he was with Alhammarret between 4553 & 4555) and planeswalked to Ravnica in about 4555. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hanami1426 (talk • contribs).

Excellent! Can you write up your argument for those dates somewhere so that we can cite that source? --Corveroth (talk) 00:36, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Sure! https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B0wzGiLYS2Iet393bNY3on93WK_Qtfl6DNWY0Ctqi4E/edit?usp=sharing

I'm probably wrong about a couple of these, but I thought I'd see if I could find anything. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hanami1426 (talk • contribs).

Planes

Since the events on the timeline comes from almost every plane, I think it can be a little confusing as it is now. Wouldn't be better to put the name of the plane to which it refers before the event? --Firebead elvenhair (talk) 14:58, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

I think there's room to improve on a lot of things here. Do you just want to start off each bullet point with something like ''Ravnica'':? That could work, but there might be a lot of redundancy. Especially earlier in the timeline, there's probably a chunk that could just be "Dominaria unless otherwise stated". If you want to try it, you could copy the page over to Timeline/sandbox and iterate over there.

There are also bigger questions about the page that should be resolved at some point, and I'm not sure if they're worth addressing before going about tagging each event with a plane label. The quality of citations, the rationale for many dates, the criteria for including an event in the list... I don't have good answers for a lot of this. --Corveroth (talk) 00:08, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I don0t want to seem too redundant. What you proposed it exactly what I had in mind. I wanted to put a plane before the bullet point only when the event is mixed within other planes. In occasions like the Brothers' War or the Dark Age, a "Dominaria" near the title can suffice, I think. Another one of my intentions is to put sources for the events when available, but I fear that will take years...

Azor, Sarkhan, Ugin

3265 Ugin and Azor meet to discuss a plan

3285 Sarkhan arrives in the past of Tarkir to see the dragon battle

3390 Azor travels to Ixalan (date approximate)

Hey, this doesn't make sense. Azor should have traveled to Ixalan between 3265 and 3285. Azor was on Ixalan and prepared to teleport Bolas from Tarkir to Ixalan if Ugin would have sent the signal. --Tuamir (talk) 22:56, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

How I read the story was: Ugin and Azor plan -> Azor travels to Ixalan and build the sun -> Ugin lures Bolas to Tarkir and fight him, but get defeated and saved by Sarkhan - Yandere Sliver 23:35, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

(Story) I don't think we can be entirely certain that the fight that Sarkhan witnessed was the same as the one in which Ugin intended to signal Azor, but I think we're intended to draw that conclusion. Yes, I would swap the order of the last two events. --Corveroth (talk) 00:07, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Then you agree with me that the "Azor travels to Ixalan" date should be changed. --Tuamir (talk) 22:23, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Correct. I have no useful knowledge regarding the exact numbers, but the order currently posted appears to need a change. --Corveroth (talk) 06:42, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Dack Fayden

I just realized that the exploits of Dack Fayden are absent from the timeline... does someone know where to put him? --Firebead elvenhair (talk) 23:01, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Jhoira's age / Time Streams dates

Just leaving this as a note for possible future cross-referencing. In Time Streams Ch 1, Jhoira states her own age as 18. In Ch 3, she gives Teferi's age as 14, and even six or more months later, Urza restates that fact in Ch 5, just before the destruction of the Academy. The founding and destruction of the Academy 1.0 are explicitly stated in Ch 9: 3285 and 3307. Mutiple references in Ch 7 and Ch 10, agree that returning to the island after the destruction took 10 years. Mentions of the progression of seasons add up to another year before the attack that puts Jhoira in a coma - mid-Spring 3318. The narrative skips forwards 3 more years. Roughly a year passes from that point while Jhoira recovers from her coma, and at the beginning of Ch 11, Teferi says he was trapped in slow-time for nearly 15 years, putting his rescure in 3322 . Very tidy timekeeping, everything lines up. Adding it all up, then, Jhoira was born in 3307-18=3289, Teferi born in 3307-14=3293 (give or take some months).

According to this new lore card (local copy), Jhoira is currently "twelve hundred years old". That's understandably imprecise, but she's at least younger than 1300, so by that yardstick, we are probably currently before the year 3289+1300=4589. Our estimated current date for Dominaria is 4565. That's in agreement! Right now, there's no need to revise anything, but if Jhoira sticks around in the future, we've got ourselves a handy way to check our dates. --Corveroth (talk) 06:03, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Rathi Overlay / Phyrexian Invasion

Today's article gives us "around 4205" as the date that Rathi Moggs were introduced to the Shivan population. How does this align with our other dates for that period? Should we update our timekeeping by a year? --Corveroth (talk) 22:55, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Rabiah

As he leaves, Nailah casts a ban on the planes of Rabiah and locks Taysir and other planeswalkers out of the 1001 worlds. According to the comics, only Taysir is banned, not other PW. --86.202.114.151 23:16, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Fixed, thx. --Hunterofsalvation (talk) 06:35, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Innistrad

The Innistrad story "The Cursed Blade" takes place between Ava. 699 and 719, and although not many characters cross over from the set, Geralf and Gisa's war is shown to take place between Harvest Moon, Ava. 716 and Hunter's Moon, Ava. 719, with the Cecani manor burning down just before 45th of New Moon, Ava. 715. If the original Innistrad set takes place in Ava. ~719 and ~4558 AR, it would place Avacyn's creation in ~3839 AR. This conflicts with "A Gaze Blank and Pitiless," which has her killing Liesa 1000 years before ~4560, but it is possible "a thousand years" is an approximation (the real number in this case being roughly 721 years). I think the Cursed Blade numbers, being more specific, would be preferable to those from A Gaze Blank and Pitiless. - DayoftheNinja (talk) 21:26, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Recent Changes

This page has been marked by User:Bob the Wikipedian for cleanup in a few spots, and recent changes including those by User:Jay13x, although generally more specific, do not have sources for their new dates. Recent edits also revert Bob the Wikipedian's fixes to Ravnican dates due to different year length (this is already called out on the page and in the previous edit but may require a more clear-cut mention). Additional recent changes include:

• Niv-Mizzet's hatching has been updated from ~6,500 A.C. as per Guildpact to 6691 A.C. as per War of the Spark: Ravnica.
• Planeswalker births, including Arlinn Kord, Ajani Goldmane, Gideon Jura, and Tacenda Verlasen have been removed.
• Liliana's acquisition of the Chain Veil, murder of Kothophed, and cursing of Garruk have been removed.
• More minor events including the Inventors' Fair and various planeswalker visits have been removed.
• The events of the Gatewatch Era have been compressed from four years (~4559-4562) into two (~4559-4560).

I don't know if there is a standard of what constitutes "newsworthy" enough for inclusion on this page, but that should probably be further discussed and decided. I'm also not sure how much sourcing there is for the dating of recent events but a more solid explanation of those dates would help cement their placement. - DayoftheNinja (talk) 18:37, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Possibly adding tooltips to non-Dominarian years with a short mention of dating or year length would help? Or simply citing each use of non-Dominarian years with a reference stating the year length. - DayoftheNinja (talk) 18:44, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

I've begun marking events on my own personal User:Bob the Wikipedian/Timeline. I think the current state of the timeline page we have here has assumed too much. Bob the WikipediaN ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:47, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Under "Notes on the timeline," there is a section that discusses Ravnican and Dominarian years passing at approximately the same rate. Teysa Karlov's age from the Family Values article lines up well with dates in the Guildpact novel. This would also be about the same amount of time to have passed on Dominaria. Despite the difference with number of days in a year, the years seem to pass at about the same rate which probably makes Ravnican days longer. Just noting that the dates previously posted by User:Jay13x reflected this. --Nivmizzetreborn (talk) 12:31, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

A couple of other points for clarification, events from the Ravnica Cycle occurred in 10,012 Z.C. per the novels. These events are before the Mending, and multiple citations associated with Agyrem indicate that the overlay of that area remained until the Mending. This would also be in line with the years between Dominaria and Ravnica passing at approximately the same rate.--Nivmizzetreborn (talk) 23:57, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I'm missing something in the Ravnican notes but it seems that Teysa stating her age and Karlov stating the same length of time would only prove that Ravnican years are the same length as Ravnican years. Does either story mention Dominarian years? I could see this theory being true if RTR took place before the mending, but I can't seem to confirm that either. RTR came out six years after TSP and I don't see any references to Agyrem in the RTR block stories, planeswalker's guides, or cards, so its unclear to me that it hadn't already been dissolved by then. Anyone with information from the novels might have a better grasp of the situation than I do. DayoftheNinja (talk) 08:53, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

From 4560 A.R. or 10,076 Z.C., we know that the Mending happened about 60 years prior (using Dominarian years). In the MTG article Ravnica, Then and Now, Adam Lee indicates that Agyrem remained on Ravnica until the Mending, and the Ravnica art book says that the “blister” on the plane (which Lee references as Agyrem) dissolved after the Mending. These sources place the events of the Guildpact and Dissension novels (10,012 Z.C.) before the Mending. The epilogue of the Dissension novel indicates the year as 10,014 Z.C., and it is assumed that Agrus Kos had his responsibilities in Agyrem for a couple more years before the Mending removed it (this is also the 2-year margin of error mentioned in the notes section). If you take 10,014 and add 2 plus 60, you get us to 10,076 Z.C. which is also 4560 A.R. Therefore, Ravnican years are considered to have passed at approximately the same rate as those on Dominaria. Consistent with the MTG article and the art book, Agyrem is not mentioned in the Return to Ravnica novels (because it is no longer there). Even with the margin of error, 10,012 Z.C. should be placed before the Mending.--Nivmizzetreborn (talk) 13:58, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Under the Mending Era section on the timeline (4500), it references Agyrem as being split off from Ravnica per Lee's article. How can the events of Dissension (10,012 Z.C.) occur after the Mending if an important part of those events (Agyrem) is no longer there?--Nivmizzetreborn (talk) 15:57, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Ah okay, I hadn't realized the events in 10,012 Z.C. were from original Ravnica block. In that case it would more or less definitively show that Ravnican years are analogous with Dominarian years. I'll change the article to reflect that then, thanks! DayoftheNinja (talk) 23:59, 25 July 2021 (UTC)