Hey Mort, we have a bit of a disagreement over an appearance of Ugin in regards to the short story he might have appeared in. I maintain that at the time, they had no plans for ugin, for two prime reasons. 1) It was too early for Zendikar's development, and this is a case of them going back and using flavor they future shifted, and 2) Matt Cavota wrote the article before he left the company. He's done other short stories purely for flavor outside canon and admitted it in a few articles of his. He also had NOTHING to do with developing Zendikar given that it was after he'd left wizards. Anyways, we could use your input regarding the matter.Barinellos 02:08, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
- I have to side with Sammedwin here. Lets not get into a canonicity debate here, considering the nature of Magic storyline it gets even more confusing concerning a range of other topics (just look at cards vs. books, prerev vs. post ref, magazine articles, online articles, web comics vs. republished armada ones vs. advertising comics). As to whether Cavotta had any say on Zendikar, lets not forget the unique nature of Future Sight. While I'd agree, that he was gone long before the forst draft of the first style guide, Ugin was inspired in name and in flavor by the card Ghost Flame, who is to say, that the same does not apply to anything else Cavotta contributed? As an encyclopedia we strife to be as complete as possible, and then have to let the reader decide. As long as the appropiate sources a cited, that shouldn't be a problem. And one more thing, while I respect MORT and I'm interested in his take on this, please in the future keep discussion on specific articles on the designated discussion page. Thanks, Oracle of Truth 11:11, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
- I treat these stories more or less like pre-rev. Canon until proven otherwise (so basically I have objections only for the Jace's story on Lorwyn - apparently by Doug Beyer :-P). Even though I agree (or, I suspect) that these articles were made without much cooperation of Creative (if any), it can't be definitely said that Creative doesn't consider them while creating new stories. So Cavotta leaving Wizards early is no argument here, IMO (I don't remember him saying they're out of canon either, but you could link me to the exact site). Time Spiral block brings even additional mess though. Simplified flavor of the first and the last sets of TS block says that creatures are coming through the rifts "from the plane's past" or "possible futures", while bringing all storyline (books!) and flavor information together, it gives me impression that actually, all of the rifts connected Dominia to its alternate realities. That just some of the infinite time streams were practically the same as the original one (in other words, time streams of the rifts depicted in TS and FS respectively, were still in the past alike to the history of our reality, or were already in the future that our reality can lead to). What it makes of that exact short story? For me personally, that Ugin who came from the rift, Planeswalker or not, he's the one from alternate reality as well, what doesn't really affect the one that sealed Eldrazi. So here's my view - I'm afraid, a little bit different from all of yours. ;-P --MORT (T) 16:52, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
- See, that's why I put it the way that I did, that he may have shown up at the time. I just don't think we should definitively state that "Yes that was Ugin" when there's so much gray area that you talk about there Mort. I take a view of treating it like pre-rev as well, but we don't really have any confirmation one way or another so I felt we should leave it vague. After all, I'm the one that added that to the article to start with.Barinellos 19:20, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
- Still there is no denying he was in fact featured in that short story with his name on the official site, so whether this appearance is part of the grand scheme of things or not, how is this a "may"? And reading that story again, I don't see anything that contradicts what we now about Ugin at the moment. Name, check. Dragon check. The invisible flame, check. Oracle of Truth 00:27, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
- Just an addendum, I think I get now, where you are coming from. From an in-universe perspective we cannot be sure, whether this was the same Ugin, who fought against the Eldrazi. But you have to understand that from the reader's perspective, the first time besides flavor text, the character appeared in How Many Eyes. Oracle of Truth 00:35, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
- When I wrote our reality, of course I meant storyline, in-universe reality as well. And for me, we can say "Yes, that was Ugin, but not the same", he just came through the rift from alternate reality. Whatever comes from rifts is not from ours, hence I'd just add a separate section for How Many Eyes at the end of the article and explain it. What do you think? --MORT (T) 09:39, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
- As long as we don't treat Ugin any different than any other subject, I'll be fine with it. Meaning, just the plain facts, first Ghostfire, then How Many Eyes and now Zendikar. No "may be him" or "questionable legitimacy", just a plain "before Zendikar" or if you like a more elaborate "along with the alternate timelines introduced with the rifts". Oracle of Truth 12:47, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
- "Ugin appeared in the short story "How Many Eyes" during Future Sight. However, it is unknown if his character had been developed at all during this first appearance." How would that sound? Barinellos 14:01, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
- Personally, I'd leave the second sentence out, since it does not actually add any information. Or rephrase it into a more informative "The character was later fleshed out for the Zendikar backstory (see below/above)" or something along the lines. But seriously, I start to feel kinda silly arguing about what appears to be a minor character so far, there are more important issues on other articles, and in real life, for me to move on to. Oracle of Truth 16:28, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
- "Ugin appeared in the short story "How Many Eyes" during Future Sight. However, it is unknown if his character had been developed at all during this first appearance." How would that sound? Barinellos 14:01, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
- As long as we don't treat Ugin any different than any other subject, I'll be fine with it. Meaning, just the plain facts, first Ghostfire, then How Many Eyes and now Zendikar. No "may be him" or "questionable legitimacy", just a plain "before Zendikar" or if you like a more elaborate "along with the alternate timelines introduced with the rifts". Oracle of Truth 12:47, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
- When I wrote our reality, of course I meant storyline, in-universe reality as well. And for me, we can say "Yes, that was Ugin, but not the same", he just came through the rift from alternate reality. Whatever comes from rifts is not from ours, hence I'd just add a separate section for How Many Eyes at the end of the article and explain it. What do you think? --MORT (T) 09:39, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
- See, that's why I put it the way that I did, that he may have shown up at the time. I just don't think we should definitively state that "Yes that was Ugin" when there's so much gray area that you talk about there Mort. I take a view of treating it like pre-rev as well, but we don't really have any confirmation one way or another so I felt we should leave it vague. After all, I'm the one that added that to the article to start with.Barinellos 19:20, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
- I treat these stories more or less like pre-rev. Canon until proven otherwise (so basically I have objections only for the Jace's story on Lorwyn - apparently by Doug Beyer :-P). Even though I agree (or, I suspect) that these articles were made without much cooperation of Creative (if any), it can't be definitely said that Creative doesn't consider them while creating new stories. So Cavotta leaving Wizards early is no argument here, IMO (I don't remember him saying they're out of canon either, but you could link me to the exact site). Time Spiral block brings even additional mess though. Simplified flavor of the first and the last sets of TS block says that creatures are coming through the rifts "from the plane's past" or "possible futures", while bringing all storyline (books!) and flavor information together, it gives me impression that actually, all of the rifts connected Dominia to its alternate realities. That just some of the infinite time streams were practically the same as the original one (in other words, time streams of the rifts depicted in TS and FS respectively, were still in the past alike to the history of our reality, or were already in the future that our reality can lead to). What it makes of that exact short story? For me personally, that Ugin who came from the rift, Planeswalker or not, he's the one from alternate reality as well, what doesn't really affect the one that sealed Eldrazi. So here's my view - I'm afraid, a little bit different from all of yours. ;-P --MORT (T) 16:52, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
I edited the page with separate section. EDIT: now changed to be little more ambiguous. I think it would be really great, if Wizards made Bolas kill the first Ugin, but then be attacked by its alternate reality copy. Although I guess they want to forget about the time rifts and won't use that concept. --MORT (T) 17:33, 25 April 2010 (UTC)